Best HD for Irish music?

[flutinggnee]

Hello,

I'm a new member here and am enjoying learning to play the hammered dulcimer. I was just wondering what other players' opinion is re: the best hammered dulcimer for playing Irish folk music? I'm interested in knowing what the sustain is like on others' dulcimers. As I'm a newbie, I'm enjoying playing my James Jones dulcimer and just wonder how the sustain is on other makers' instruments.

Thanks for any opinions!

[Rahere]

There's ambition for you - there are precious few HD players in Ireland because sustain is almost the last thing you need for most Irish music. But at the same time, if you're prepared to develop the Santoor traditions of damping, Derek Bell set a path to follow.

[flutinggnee]

Well, I'll probably just be playing Irish tunes for my own enjoyment. (I play the Irish flute for sessions.) But I was thinking of the Irish folk music playing of Karen Ashbrook and Maggie Sansone. Anyone know what dulcimers and/or set up (dampers, etc.) that they use? Anyone here play Irish on HD? What do you do?

[Lauri]

I watched Karen Ashbrook's DVD today. She stated her hammer dulcimer was made by Nick Blanton. There were no dampers on her dulcimer in the DVD. She taught basic skills and 8 Irish tunes from beginners to intermediate. Her performances at the end with husband playing the Harp Guitar were wonderful !

[Rahere]

Dampers are still in their infancy, which is why I was talking about manual damping - you don't want to go from sustain to mute in one fell swoop either.

There's another question which might also be relevant, and that's a responsive hammer. John Rea from Belfast, for example, used steel wire, bound with wool, which goes in the same direction as my nascent thinking on tsimbaly hammers: their recurve seems to act very much like the counterbalance spring in the hamstring, storing power recuperatively to permit a faster action. And that is very much of the essence, as you know, in Irish music.
Part of my thinking comes from the increasing use of multicored tippers on the bohran, for exactly that reason. Made variously of cane and steel cores, they flex well and respond quickly, far more so than rigid tippers do - and that's the same as with HD hammers. Flexible shafts and a recuperative head and you're getting somewhere.

[Peter Tommerup]

There's ambition for you - there are precious few HD players in Ireland because sustain is almost the last thing you need for most Irish music. But at the same time, if you're prepared to develop the Santoor traditions of damping, Derek Bell set a path to follow.

There seems to me to be a bit of an overstatement in your 2 posts in this discussion re: the supposed "unsuitability" of an HD for playing in an Irish session. Yes, those weaned on revival Irish bands (e.g., Chieftains, Planxty, Bothy Band) with out HD's may find them an imposition, but this is a clearly subjective aesthetic opinion based on one's experience and tastes--NOT a musical fact!

For some interesting comments by Irish session players check out comments from a discussion on THE SESSION.org: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/d ... 4/comments. There are a number of favorable comments about HD's in Irish sessions, but of course different folks have different opinions as to why and when they like HD's there.

To my ears, I have heard HD players who blend in beautifully with other typical Irish instruments, AND I've also heard them hack and bang their way through tunes in ways that I find aesthetically displeasing. BUT, I can say the same for fiddlers, guitarists, flutists, and especially players of really loud and piercing penny whistles. Sometimes I can't even sit in the same room as one of these. So it all depends.

Making highly opinionated negative statements about HD in Irish sessions seems to be fashionable among some who consider themselves to be purists, but I simply take it for what it is--someone's opinion. The HD has a rather long history in Irish music, at times it's been very popular, whereas today it's receded in popularity. If it is played sensitively and appropriately, I think it sounds fantastic. Take Malcolm Dalglish's early albums where he played with Gery Larsen: many of the sets they did are hauntingly beautiful!

If sustain is felt to be an issue in a particular session, there are many ways to reduce it: padded hammers, playing less forcefully, strapping tape over the bridges nearest the pinblocks and, of course, opting for a low sustain HD. I happen to really like the way my Dusty Strings D-300 blends in with Irish tunes in a session. It has 3 octaves, is small, weighs only about 12 pounds, is well balanced--not too bright and not too boomy. I tend to agree with some of the comments on THE SESSION discussion (above) that larger HD's (for example, like Dusty Strings' D-500 , D-550, D-600 or D-650) can sound fantastic on Irish tunes when played in smaller sessions or ensembles, but could be more overpowering--depending on how they are played--than a smaller HD like the D-300.

I for one have played HD in Irish sessions for about 30 years, and lead an Irish session 2-3 times a month. The last 2 times close to 15 folks showed up, we all had a great time, and no one seemed disturbed by my leading the session on HD and MD. Another session leader at the same pub also plays and leads sessions with her HD. Her sessions are also quite popular, as are the sessions led by the 3rd leader, who is a wonderful fiddler. Each session has its own following of folks who like a particular session leader's vision of the music, of how to lead a session, their individual style and repertoire. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ONE "RIGHT WAY" TO ORGANIZE OR PLAY IN AN IRISH SESSION, IMHO! There are ways that better contribute to or detract from the ethos and soul of the music, but this is true FOR ALL INSTRUMENTS--NOT JUST HD's.

Your suggestion of borrowing hand damping from Persian santoor tradition is an interesting idea, though I can't quite imagine how one would successfully pull it off while playing a reel in a fast session--unless one plays backup or leaves out a heck of a lot of melody notes. Some more in depth description of how you may use this technique while playing HD in a session would help me--and probably others reading this discussion--to understand exactly how one could manage to play fast Irish tunes in a fast session AND tastefully damp via the hands. Or, do you have a video of this you can direct us towards? The santoor playing that I am familiar with can be highly expressive and very beautiful, but what I've heard is more from a courtly or kinda classical tradition. The player is not so focused on maintaining a steady up tempo dance beat, so there are often places where hand damping fits in well with this style and repertoire.

Finally, much of this topic re: "the suitability of HD's for Irish session playing" was discussed in depth about August 2011 here on ED. If you search a bit, you shouldn't have much difficulty in finding the discussion thread. "Irish," "session" and "hammered dulcimer" were, as I recall, all in the title of the thread. Paul Gifford, the respected HD historian, weighed in once or twice with some very interesting historical info about HD's in Irish music. Definitely worth reading, especially to carry on this kind of discussion.

Best,
Peter

[Rahere]

Some of the Santoor players are using single-finger damping techniques virtually identical to the damping needed for wire-strung harp, so I think the solution is to learn from their practice. Cut the major power source for the harmonics and you cut the harmonics, maybe not so quickly as full-hand (or even full-arm) damping, but still enough. Some are even finger-picking/damping with the left and hammer in the right, but looking at them it seems they're taking the pragmatic line that if it works for you, the piece and the set...
Dick Glasgow, boss of the EuroDulcimers site, has http://irishdulcimer.com/ which is the authoritative reference to what's actually going on over there.

[Peter Tommerup]

Some of the Santoor players are using single-finger damping techniques virtually identical to the damping needed for wire-strung harp, so I think the solution is to learn from their practice. Cut the major power source for the harmonics and you cut the harmonics, maybe not so quickly as full-hand (or even full-arm) damping, but still enough. Some are even finger-picking/damping with the left and hammer in the right, but looking at them it seems they're taking the pragmatic line that if it works for you, the piece and the set...
Dick Glasgow, boss of the EuroDulcimers site, has http://irishdulcimer.com/ which is the authoritative reference to what's actually going on over there.

Hi Rawhere,

Thanks for Dick Glascow info. This was mentioned in the last "HD in Irish sessions" discussion thread back in August.

Are you a santoor player, or have you adopted these damping techniques to your own HD playing? Would love to see a video of this! Or hear about it in more detail, like when do you use it in an Irish session, in what sorts of tunes, and how frequently. I could certainly envision it being used with wonderful effect in slow airs or O'Carolan tunes.

As I said, the hand damping technique you describe sounds interesting and whets my curiosity, but I still don't see how one would apply it as an HD player playing a medley of reels (or jigs, etc) in a fast Irish session. ESPECIALLY when I'm leading the session: then it's my responsibility to play the melodies loudly and clearly so everyone can "click into" the tune. Hand damping, in my imagination, would have the potential here to just interrupt the flow of the music. And in Irish dance music, keeping the beat is one of the most important things to focus on. Here, a hammer dulcimer can be really helpful, given it's percussive quality. Also, many Irish sessions happen in loud, noisy pubs, where you can barely hear the music even when folks are playing with gusto. Any HD sustain issues are likely to be obliterated by the noise and the other loud instruments.

I also don't quite see how it would silence the criticisms of those who just don't care for the sound of an HD in an Irish session. Or really why one would necessarily want to employ this technique--except perhaps occasionally for special effect (since I haven't heard/seen the possible benefits of doing it yet) or in slow airs, and I rather like the sounds that emanate from an HD played with tact, artistry and an appropriate amount of restraint in the context of an Irish session.

To me, the sustain thing isn't a burning issue. In fact, it's not much of an issue at all--unless some members of a session are upset by an undamped HD. I think this criticism of an HD not being a "suitable Irish session instrument" is often just a smoke screen by folks who don't like the sound of the HD in general, and as an excuse to keep HD players intimidated so as not to join in some Irish sessions. In other words, an excuse to keep out what are perceived as "the musical riffraff."

I am aware that some people are more sensitive to sustain than others. If this is the case in a particular session, then there are some pretty easy (if not always used) ways to cut back on sustain BEFORE the hammer hits the string--as I mentioned earlier in this thread. This seems to me to be a lot easier than trying to control it AFTER a string has been hammered. I don't use mechanized dampers for this same reason--you'd have to keep your foot on the pedal all of the time, which simply isn't practical for 3 or more hours of playing in a typical session.

If one REALLY is concerned about sustain, try felt hammers and the "tape-on-the-bridges near the pinblocks" idea. That'll REALLY cut sustain. Of course, you probably won't be able to hear yourself either. Dusty Strings makes a couple of sets of double sided hammers which have felt on one side and kangaroo skin on the other. The felt side damps the heck out of whatever you're playing, and the kangaroo skin does a good job of cutting the high overtones yet does less muting than the more usual leather hammer coverings do.

Where sustain could be a burning issue, I suspect, is if you had several loud hammer dulcimer players in one Irish session, and all of them were playing very vigorously with "hard" hammers at the same time, and not quite in sync. Then I could easily sympathize with complaints from other players about too much sustain, but the problem would also be the potential "out of syncness" of multiple HD players as well. However, in my 3 decades of going to Irish sessions, I've actually only heard this problem occur on a couple of occasions--and this was when the HD was intended to be the primary instrument, since the Irish session was at an HD camp.

On the contrary, I've been to quite a few Irish sessions over the years where there has been (to me) piercing penny whistling or fiddling, as well as way too loud banjo playing and overly bombastic bodhran beating, not to mention blasting pipe playing. So, I think that ALL players of ALL instruments would do well to figure out how to restrain and soften their playing. AN IMPORTANT PART OF PLAYING IN ANY ENSEMBLE SITUATION IS TOO MODULATE YOUR OWN VOLUME SO THAT YOU CAN CLEARLY HEAR--AND ENJOY--THE PLAYING OF OTHER MUSICIANS. If you can't clearly hear other players, then you're likely playing too loudly! Making music with others is like having a conversation with friends--or potential friends. If you completely dominate the conversation with your own chatter, you probably won't get to experience and enjoy as many wonderful conversations. Same goes for HD playing (or the playing of other instruments). FOR ALL PLAYERS OF ALL INSTRUMENTS, LEARNING TO LISTEN WHILE PLAYING MUSIC IS EVERY BIT AS IMPORTANT AS LEARNING TO PLAY!

Some Irish sessions have evolved rules of etiquette that include: only 1 bodhran or guitar PLAYING AT A TIME. Others suggest that only 1 guitar or bodhran LEADS at a time, and that any others may play softly in the background. This sort of principle could reasonably be applied to HD as well. ESPECIALLY if an HD player doesn't know the tune--or the version of the tune--being played, and is obliviously and loudly banging around trying to find the notes.

It's not a case that HD players represent some sort of musical scourge to Irish sessions that must be discouraged at all costs--except perhaps in the minds of purists who are simply: a) not aware of the HD being an historical Irish instrument (and more so than a number of others commonly found in sessions today), b) not used to hearing it, and c) therefore are unwilling to overlook it's possible excesses in the same way they are willing to overlook less than sensitive and not-too-musical playing by the players of other more popular instruments. As Paul Gifford noted in the last "HD in Irish sessions" discussion thread, the sustain issue is a matter of subjective perception and contemporary Irish musical revival fad and fashion. It has less to do with being true to Irish musical tradition or historical musical authenticity.

Any other HD players who like to play in Irish sessions have anything they'd like to contribute?

Best,
Peter

[Peter Tommerup]

Hello,

I'm a new member here and am enjoying learning to play the hammered dulcimer. I was just wondering what other players' opinion is re: the best hammered dulcimer for playing Irish folk music? I'm interested in knowing what the sustain is like on others' dulcimers. As I'm a newbie, I'm enjoying playing my James Jones dulcimer and just wonder how the sustain is on other makers' instruments.

Thanks for any opinions!

Hi,

Welcome to the ED HD discussion area!

We seem to have gotten into a discussion of the suitability of HD's in Irish sessions rather than answering your original question. This is interesting and OK with me, but I thought that perhaps you might actually appreciate it if someone addresses your question.

I've mentioned that I like a Dusty Strings D-300. This was originally designed to be a low sustain instrument. Compared to some, it still is. I think it has a nice tonal balance or "voice" for playing in Irish sessions. It's not as bright on the top end as some HD's I've heard, nor is it overly bassy or too boomy on the bottom end. It is on the small side for a full 3 octave instrument, and so fits pretty unobtrusively into the cramped spaces that Irish sessions often seem to happen in. I have heard folks say a number of nice things about it's sound in the context of an Irish session. While it can be heard clearly in the mix of instruments found in a typical session, it is not so loud that a player can easily dominate the session's "sound mix."

Of course, the amount of sustain probably depends even more on the player than on the instrument. Any given instrument is just the "starting point" for the sound that comes out. It's how it's played that really matters, as well as what sorts of hammers and other techniques are employed. What I'm saying, is that any HD--like any other instrument--is likely going to be a bit of a compromise: you'll like certain things about a make or model and wish other things could be a bit different.

I liked the D-300's sound and portability when I first got one in 1987. Since then, Dusty Strings has redesigned this (and all of their other models) several times. The latest D-300's are much lighter and slightly smaller, but (to my ear) with better balanced sound that blends really well with other instruments: from guitars and fiddles to banjos and bagpipes. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that my ear tells me that the newer models have a little sweeter and better balanced sound. But, of course, this is subjective! One of the the other folks who leads Irish sessions at the same pub that I do, plays a low sustain HD model by Master Works (could be a Russell Cook Edition or one model down from this). We each sound distinctively different, but we each seem to fill up our sessions with the players of other instruments who don't mind playing Irish tunes with HD's.

One criteria I used successfully the last time I went shopping for an HD was: when I went to an HD festival where there were many models by different makers, I just listened carefully wherever I was, whether playing in a session, taking a workshop, or walking to and fro. Whenever I heard the sound of an HD that I REALLY enjoyed, I looked to see what it was, and asked it's owner if I could try it out. I did this because I had learned that there are two things to listen for when thinking about buying an HD (or probably any other instrument): what it sounds like when you listen to it from a distance (ranging from several feet to maybe 30 or so) AND what it sounds like when I sit behind it and play it! Using this technique, I found HD's that I enjoyed playing, but wasn't that excited about when I was just listening to them, as well as ones that I loved listening to but that I realized I would probably never learn to love when I was playing them. Overall, I would recommend this sort of technique for figuring out which HD you might enjoy getting next!

What did I wind up getting after listening to some 60 or 70 instruments (including those made by production-line builders and others crafted by one-at-a-time custom makers) over a period of 3 days? A Dusty Strings D-550. I just loved the sound, the layout of the bridges, the fact that the center bridge is perpendicular to the player instead of on a diagonal (makes it easier and less fatiguing to play for me), and the fact that it sounded good to me when played at a variety of volume levels, on a variety of kinds of music, with a variety of hammers, and when playing solo or with some friends.

But that's just what spoke to me and why, to give you some ideas. Your own "favorite" sound, bridge layout, sustain level, or other characteristics could--and probably will--be different! Best thing would be try out various instruments on the kinds of music you envision playing on them. And to search for other discussions in the Everything Dulcimer archives on what to look for when buying an HD.

The other thing to bear in mind is that IT IS POSSIBLE TO SIGNIFICANTLY ADJUST THE SOUND of an HD that you already have. You can probably coax it to have less sustain, more volume, a deeper and richer sound or whatever, through a bit of experimentation with hammers, different ways of muting (dampers, hand damping, use of strapping tape over the bridges nearest the pin blocks, weaving yarn or strips of felt between courses of strings, placing strips of soft foam under the strings by the side-most bridges, etc), and even the stand(s) you put your HD on when playing it. Stands are often thought of as "invisible" to the sound of an HD, but they definitely influence the sound--sometimes in unexpected and "unpreferred" ways! With some creativity, time and willingness to experiment, you can play with each of the elements I just mentioned in such a way that they can be adjusted like "tone controls" on a stereo (though perhaps with a bit more tinkering and effort!).

So, what does this mean for you? It means that you can probably make the HD you have a little more suitable for what you'd like to do with it--play Irish tunes--or even modify the sound of a new instrument to make it more the way you wish it was, should this ever be necessary! Who knows: you might even be able to adjust the sound of an HD so you might feel comfortable playing it in an Irish session.

Happy Hammering!
Peter

[MorningDove]

@ Rahere & Peter Tommerup:

As an intermediate player, when I'm playing in sessions where the tempos are dictated by fiddlers, it's all I can do just to play the tune notes. The physical requirements of moving (leaping) forearms seem to me a great deal more tiring or more taxing (large motor control vs. small motor control) than moving fingers on a string. Additionally, my dulcimer cannot be heard, even by me: I'm playing by sight rather than by sound, so if I can't even hear the notes, I presume I'm the equivalent of a 19th violin in a fiddler's orchestra -- i.e., lending my voice to the general sound but not making much of an impact. In such a context and with such tempos, I can't imagine having time to dampen much of anything.

Except in slow airs, is there any reason to dampen?

[Rahere]

My Irish work has mostly been on harp and whistle - I long treasure the comment another harper made when a third accordeonist joined the session, "The Time For Subtlety Is Past", and the same applies here. I've inherited a 30-course hackbrett from my late wife, with 3-string courses which certainly make a difference! I came across the santoor technique while looking for hammers used by Eastern European players in Brussels, which have a recurved head, turns out they're tsimbaly hammers. What I noticed was that the curve absorbs excess energy, much like the hamstring tendon and kangaroo's legs and tail do, making for a faster action. I now know how to make them in theory, but need the time to get it right in practice - Brendan White's about to get an unusual request for some of his tipper cane!
Another thought is about your stands - my chopping board has 5" legs which lift the back edge clear of the table and push the sound forwards, much like an MD's possum board. Are you playing flat on the table? It might be interesting to see what jacking up the rear on a wood block does.
Now for questions of damping. Not something needed often, sure, but when the chord structures change, or the phrasing stops, or you just plain get lost, being able to shut up pdq can be needed, which is why HDs are appearing with dampers built in. Harps use three levels of damping, finger-damping (wire-strung practice above all), hand-damping to quieten the octave around the string, and the entire forearm to quieten almost everything. Those santoor boys were also damping chords using their fingers. There's no reason not to do the same to selectively kill annoyances, major sound dwells, and complete wipe=out.
Until the move from Brussels back to London, I was to be found hauling low whistles and a BP around the Flemish folk festival at Gooik, who actually asked me to take the beginners whistle class last year. The BP was to see how it reacted to hurdies, which it flies above with wings on. I'm now trying to learn fingerpicking an MD as well.
My major musical education is in voice, having started in one of the choirs Benjamin Britten wrote for. One of my peers went on to teach voice at Guildhall (one of London's two colleges at the same level as Julliard), but I was bound for industry and it's only now Europe's paying me comfortably in preretirement I've time to dedicate to undoing the harm done by all those blasted open-plans - the Cecil Sharp House Community Choir has a new member, and I'm learning repertoire! However, my cameras and studio kit are still buried deep in the unpacking, so I'll cry off AV for the moment.

[dulcimerbird]

I've been playing in an Irish Session for three years now, and I play a Rick Thum professional model. It has moderate sustain and a gorgeous tone.

I believe the key to fitting in to a session is how you play, not what you play. Be careful with your rhythms and start with soft hammers, as your skill increases you can shift to louder ones. Go and listen to the session for awhile then ask if you can join, before bringing the instrument. I suspect complaints about sustain have more to do with poor rhythm than they do with sustain, against the piercing tones of a Satsuma penny whistle, and 7 to 15 other instruments, I can't hear any sustain.

By the way, if you are looking for a really nice non-ear piercing penny whistle check out Parks Whistles at parkswhistles.com, they are the nicest sounding whistles I've heard. Yes, he's a friend that I play with regularly but their still the nicest sounding whistles I've heard.

Chris