even tempered or just scale???

[proffitt]

I was on backyard instruments (I love their idea of cardboard instruments and simple wood instruments) and on their dulcimer page they mentioned that their dulcimers come with "just" scales as opposed to even tempered scales. What exactly does this mean? What is the lay-man's explanation?

Will my harpmaker's student model have a "just" or "even-tempered" scale?

Basically this to me sounds like the difference between Hammurabi's code and the justice system we try to put in place today? How does it effect my music?

Here is the link... refer to the bottom of the page:

http://www.backyardmusic.com/About_Dulcimers.html

[Lisa -S.H.]

Your dulcimer will likely be equal-tempered, like most modern dulcimers these days. That will make it sound better when playing chord style and when playing with other modern instruments that are equal-tempered, such as guitars and fretted banjos.

A just-tempered dulcimer would be good for playing in noter/drone style and accompanying the very old ballads and playing solo.
Backyard Instruments site tends to focus on historic style. I agree they seem to offer some cool stuff.

You shouldn't worry too much about just temperament unless you plan on doing archaic music or historically accurate playing.
You could always get another instrument later on for that if you wanted to pursue that genre.

[proffitt]

well I do play a lot of old-time... but then again I play the banjo... but then again I plan on playing with a noter... but wait... maybe I won't.

The even-tempered is going to sound ok, right? This is just too many decisions for someone with OCD. I will obsess about this for hours. ugh!

[Lisa -S.H.]

well I do play a lot of old-time... but then again I play the banjo... but then again I plan on playing with a noter... but wait... maybe I won't.

The even-tempered is going to sound ok, right? This is just too many decisions for someone with OCD. I will obsess about this for hours. ugh!

No no!---it'll sound JUST GREAT! My dulcimers are equal tempered, and I play only noter style and lots of old tunes and ballads, and they sound swell. If I don't really need just-t., then you don't either.
Equal tempered is about 99% of all dulcimers made these days. Yours will be great...more versatile, and also more resell-able than a just tempered one would be.

DO NOT WORRY ABOUT THIS AT ALL.

[proffitt]

whew... that helped a lot. As does your great blog! Thank you!!!

[Lisa -S.H.]

Yer welcome.

[Banjimer]

Lisa is correct. An equal-tempered scale is far more versatile considering what is being played on the dulcimer these days.

However, when you're ready for the just-tempered scale, it provides a blending of drones and melody notes that just can't be matched on the modern equal-tempered scale. With more experience you will hear the difference when playing noter-drone style. It's an acquired taste, much like bagpipe playing where the melody notes and drones have a similar blending effect.

Just like the bagpipes, the just tempered scale can sound a little "out of tune" to the unfamiliar ear. It's not really out of tune, just different than what the ear is used to hearing.

Greg

[folkfan]

I was on backyard instruments (I love their idea of cardboard instruments and simple wood instruments) and on their dulcimer page they mentioned that their dulcimers come with "just" scales as opposed to even tempered scales. What exactly does this mean? What is the lay-man's explanation?

Will my harpmaker's student model have a "just" or "even-tempered" scale?

Basically this to me sounds like the difference between Hammurabi's code and the justice system we try to put in place today? How does it effect my music?

Here is the link... refer to the bottom of the page:

http://www.backyardmusic.com/About_Dulcimers.html

You'll note that in the Backyard music comment they say that their dulcimer with the just tuning will sound fine when played with other Backyard dulcimers, or solo, but if you want to play with other instruments or in other keys, you'd want the even-tempered scale. That's what most modern dulcimers use so they can jam with other dulcimers as well as other instruments.

Many a year ago, dulcimers were frequently used as a solo instrument and tuned to themselves as it has been described. Meaning that the player pick a good sound for his bass string based on his or her voice and then tuned the other strings to that sound. The sound he picked didn't have to be a true note according to modern piano tuning. Which is why the Ionian mode is often shown as 1-5-5 so you could tune C#G#G# and be ok with playing. You don't have to get an exact C on the bass as long as the other strings fit into the sound range properly.

[proffitt]

Thank you everyone. Tuning strings to one string to fit your voice is something I am familiar with playing the banjo. When you play solo sometimes that is easier than using a capo (if you are going up one fret) because with the capo the 5th string peg that sticks out of the side of the neck gets in the way more as you "shorten" up the frets with the capo to raise the key. So for instance... it is more comfortable to play D just tuned to D rather than C with a capo. So long as you don't have to go to A (which is G w/ the capo) or vice-versa it helps to have the extra frets available before that 5th string tuner... if that makes any sense.

[foggers]

Hi - you asked for an explanation in layman's terms. Here is how I understand the topic (based on talking to people who use both kinds of tunings and from my own experience).

The pitch of a note is determined by the frequency of air vibration. However, our ears really cannot detect the tiny differences in frequency. In fact we learn to "hear" a note in tune depending on the music we are raised around.

When it comes to harmonies between different notes these too are affected by the nature of the different frequencies. In equal temperament the notes are tuned to particular frequencies in such a way that the harmonies sound good enough in different scales (edit added). I experienced this for years when tuning the B string of my guitar. The electronic tuner would say the string was accurate but to my ear it would not sound right in chords of Gmajor and Emajor, so I learned to tweak the string a little to get the best compromise for both chords and scales in different keys (edit added).

Some instruments - like bagpipes and concertinas - use the "just" frequencies to tune to (usually called "just intonation")as they use single note melodies with some drone accompaniment and are often only playing in a fixed key so the harmonies are achieved using the more accurate "just intonation". (edit added) String instruments intended for chord type playing and playing with others usually use the equal ("equal temperament") frequencies as these provide the best fit for harmonies across a number of keys(edit added). So, as Lisa has said, your dulcimer in equal temperament will be fine.

[Lisa -S.H.]

Equal temperament was invented for piano and keyboard instruments. It's function was not to create the best sound for harmonies (in fact it made harmonies sound less sweet)- but rather it was invented so that the instrument could play in various keys and still sound as good as possible. It created a series of compromises, which makes all the intervals more or less equal between notes. In a more natural setting, the notes of a scale will have longer intervals between some notes and shorter intervals between other notes. When staying in ONE scale, this is very pleasing sounding, and the harmonies there are the most pleasing. But change to another key without moving those intervals and everything will sound slightly 'off'. On fretless instruments (violin) or instruments with movable frets (lute) the player compensates automatically for this with subtle finger placement differences, but with fixed frets (or with piano where you wouldn't want to retune every time you change keys) you cannot compensate much.

So equal temperament was invented for keyboard/piano, and fretted instruments that play in multiple keys (guitar, banjo, mandolin...) all followed suit. All these equal tempered instruments could play nicely in sync with each other. This was an organized shift in an effort 'standardize' all instruments and enable them to change keys quickly with fewer problems. But overall the equal intervals produced a total sound that was slightly less sweet and perfect, yet solved a lot of problems for the muscians playing together in various keys. Throw a just-tempered instrument (with fixed frets you cannot move) into the group to play with them, and it would sound slightly 'off'. And with fixed frets you cannot fix the problem by retuning, because the frets are dictating the invervals between notes. You can't tune back and forth just temperament or equal temperament...and they are not tunings. If you are fretless you can switch back and forth using your finger placements (but you have to be able to hear the very slight differences in intervals)...but if you have fixed frets you cannot change the intervals by re-tuning open strings- the frets will be permanently placed for a particular temperament, such as just or equal.

Over the 150 years or so years since equal temperament has become the standard, people have grown up being used to hearing equal temp. in all popular music. So nowadays, most people who hear music being played in just temperament (or any other non equal temp. for that matter) find it odd sounding and often think the notes are 'out of tune'. In fact, the notes are slightly more IN tune than in equal t., but sound odd because they are not what folks are used to hearing anymore. If you listen to a group of musicians specializing in archaic music and playing on historically accurate reproduction instruments, you might think they are playing 'out of tune' but you attribute that to their 'old' instruments that 'can't play in tune'. Lots of people say the same thing about old recordings of fiddlers too- that they are 'playing out of tune'..when in fact in most cases they are playing in older scales using older intervals. Of course, that's not to say that a few of them aren't actually playing out of tune! But most of the time it's due to the subtle interval/temperament differences.
Here looks like an interesting book, titled How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: And Why You Should Care:
http://www.amazon.com/Equal-Temperament ... 715&sr=8-1

[foggers]

Hi Lisa- thanks yes I have just -re-read my own post and realised I had phrased it in a misleading way - my illustration from the B string of my guitar was intended to illustrate that the B needed in a Gmaj chord and an Emaj chord and in other scales were all slightly different and the tuning I ended up with was a compromise. I did indeed mean that harmonies in DIFFERENT scales were facilitated by equal temperament tuning.... thanks for saying it so much better than I did

I have edited my post above so that it is less misleading, but made it clear where the added bits are so folks can see that I was not as clever as I thought I was until Lisa clarified things as above!